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who's better Alice or Bella
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Bella Or Alice?
Alice
 58%  [ 7 ]
Bella
 41%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 12

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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answer to your question: Other people's posts.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but reading the book is the only accurate way to interpret the characters.

Think back to 7th grade History... the primary source is always more reliable than a secondary source.

Especially an opinionated secondary source.
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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't a history assignment.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When did I say it was?

*sigh* It's called using life's exmaples to prove your point.

Every detail you have about Twilight is taken from someone else's opinions. If you like, I can give you a preliminary definition on the word 'opinion' but that would just make me seem rude, and I'm really not trying to be, so I'll just stress the word, "biased." An opinion is always biased. Always.
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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not retarded, I know what an 'opinion' is.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clearly stated I didn't want to put you down in any way whatsoever. Sorry if you feel I was saying you are "retarded."

And I even gave you the courtesy of not giving you the definition of "opinion." I'm trying my hardest to be civilised here, and I'm succeeding, but everytime I say something worth noting, you steer the conversation in a different direction... *shrug*

If you're going to ask for an exmaple, I'll give you this:
"You're forming your opinions from someone else's opinion. That makes your arguments hardly legitimate. I'd understand if you had read the books and had formed these opnions yourself, but this way, you're gathered these 'facts' from other people's opinions..." After this, I gave the example of primary and seconday sources.

You: "This isn't a history assignment."

That proves the point I was making earlier.
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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in a book, you either like or hate the character- that in itself is bias.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, you haven't replied to my points.

I'll be the diplomatic one here and I'll keep following your changes in thought.

The world isn't in black and white. That is one major rule you need to learn in life. There's always shades of grey in between. You either like or hate a character... not true. People are COMPLEX. Have you ever met someone in your life who youve entirely hated or entirely loved? No. Even I can give you the answer to that.

That is what Stephenie really brings out in her characters. They are so human because they have their faults. You can dislike them for certain things, but the good things about them far outweigh the bad things. Like... your family. You may not like habits a family member has... but ultimately, you love them.

That's what the world is like. Complex world. Complex people.
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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the characters all have flaws, then why is Edward so perfect? Does he not follow this rule or are you just losing track of your arguments and just randomly speaking?
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward is perfect in many ways, but he does have his flaws. Even I'll admit it. The first one he has no control over--he's attracted to Bella's blood. This isn't a flaw in Edward, but it's something that will hinder their relationship.

He also believes that all he is doing is endangering Bella. Edward is willing to tear himself away from his true love to do what he believes is right for her. This is such a beautiful trait. The flaw in it is that it really isn't what is best for Bella. Bella needs Edward.

I am NOT randomly speaking. I believe I gave up anything like that several years ago. Now, whever I state something with conviction, I mean it. I always have a reasoning behind everything erious I say or do.
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Izzy_The_Goddess
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. But I still think you're wrong.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... if you'd read the book, I would be perfectly fine with that statement. Because, as you know, it would then be your own opinion.

But this way.. I'm still not comfortable.

I'll leave it at that and, once again, be as diplomatic as possible. (All I know about diplomacy now is that I never want to take up a career that involves too much of it... especially a career that involves both politics AND diplomacy).
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alright, I can see all the bad things Izzy said about Bella when I put on my meany-glasses, EXCEPT that she is NOT a bitch to her mom. i just have to defend that one, because Bella almost DIED for her mom, regardless of Edward or caring for anyone else, she was going to give up her life for her mother. If that's being a bitch...well, yea.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... points you made earlier, Izzy.

Edward is HEAPS older than Bella - He's permanently frozen as a 17 year old. He has simply lived for 107 years.

Edward is perfect and this isn't attractive in the slightest - Isn't it? Read the book and you'll find out that Edward isn't exactly perfect (as I've mentioned earlier) and that even if he was, it would still be an admirable quality.

Bella is stubborn - Maybe... in a few small parts of the book. Maybe. But what I love about Stephenie's books is that the characters are believable. Who isn't stubborn at times? I know I am, you are... everyone is. Hell, even Edward is.

Bella is not really attractive - First off, have you seen her as a person? I'm amazed someone can say this without reading the book first. And I find that criticising someone for their looks is a particularly cruel way of judging someone. It's what's on the inside that counts.

Bella is clumsy - She's admitted this herself in the books... I don't see how being clumsy makes her a bad person. Her hand-eye coordination skills simply aren't as good as others. Again, a cruel way of judging someone.

Bella is slow - Uh... what? She's slow compared to the vampires. How is that something that's bad? Cruel judging method...

Bella is sensitive - Yes, that's nice to know. Thanks for telling us. But how does it make her a bad person? Actually, Stephenie didn't want to make Bella the damsel-in-distress. She opposes misogynistic values and she even proved this by making Bella save Edward at the end of New Moon. You can guess what I'm going to say next: Cruel judging methods again...


Self-centred - How so? She dotes on Edward. She loves her family very much. She even risks her own life to save her family. When Mike, Eric and Tyler are constantly approaching her, she DOES get a little frustrated. But how much more patience do you expect of her? If she was any more patient that that, you'd start criticising her patience!

Narcissistic - To be classified as a narcissist you have to have a majority of the symptoms. Bella doesn't. It's strange... I was doing a bit of research on this topic a few weeks ago, and I can clearly tell you that Bella isn't a narcissist. Reserach the disorder yourself to find out why...

Stuck-up - Again, how so? She gets frustrated with the guys at her school, but that's understandable. There's not much else that makes her stuck-up. I found Bella to be selfless in many ways. Especially towards her family.

Grudging - One word: when? The part where she says she wants to run over Tyler isn't grudging at all. If you read the book, you can understand what context it was in.

Stupid - Gee, I don't think so. Bella is actually quite smart. If you wat proof, then I can tell you she was in the advanced placement program for Biology when she was in Phoenix. She also happens to know what she's talking about... such as the essay she wrote.

Annoying - Okay, this is more a personal opinion than anything else. I would readily accept it if you had read the books. But you haven't, so I can't accept it.

Willing-to-be-a-slave-for-Edward - There's a thousand and one ways to counter this, but I'll just choose the easiest way out: Edward hasn't asked Bella to be his slave. Bella has never said she wants to be Edward's slave. She loves him. Loving someone isn't about being their slave.

Obsessed-with-Edward - Sure she is. I know I'd be. The descriptions are all there in the book... Edward is someone you can't help but obsess about. I can't keep repeating the same things over and over again. Read the book.

Dumb - Hmm, we discussed this earlier with the "stupid" comment, didn't we? Synonyms not allowed.

Gutless - wth? wth? wth?

Boring - Again, a personal opinion. But you haven't read the books so I can't accept your opinion.

Without-an-opinion - From which corner of the world did you pluck this string of hyphenated words? Without an opinion? Bella has her own opinion. E.g. She wants to become a vampire. That's an opinion. Another opinion? She recommended dresses for Angela and Jessica. That's an opinion. She thinks that Jacob is someone she could easily be friends with when she first meets him... that's an opinion. Please... have basis behind your points.

Acts-like-a-bitch-to-her-mum - Oh... society's changed it's values, has it? Being willing to die to save your mum is now a bitchy act? Really? I'd better you tell my friends not to ever help their mums again! I'm sure they wouldn't want to be judged as bitches.

And much more... - Ah, the easy way out. What exactly IS this "much more"? I'm pretty sure there's not much else you can say without reading the books.

--------------
Before this evolves into something else, I'd just like to tell you, Izzy, that I'm not taking a go at you or anything. It's just that the long list of words you just plucked off the top of your head were just asking to be rebutted.

I'm stating my opinion as opposed to yours. That's all.
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Lil
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He's permanently frozen as a 17 year old. He has simply lived for 107 years.


That simply made me crack up in hysterics!! Haha. Who knows why..

Bella.. Hmm. I don't hate Bella, but i do find her damn annoying at some parts of the book.
I do agree with everything you have said Ammy, but i still don't like Bella that much.

Its true that Stephenie has made her real, in the sense that she acts as any other average human would. Apart from hardly ever being scared... Haha.

But at points i do find her a bit self-centred. I don't know how though. It's strange. Like the part before the meadow when she gets all depressed and stuff. I love that bit, and i find it heart-wrenching, but she does it way too much! She puts herself down way too much and makes everything seem much more worse (or maybe puts it into perspective... never thought of that). Its just annoying that she makes it seem as though she has it bad because the vampire she is in love with is godly and perfect. Its like she thinks she is in the worst situation in the world.

I know Bella doesn't think this, that she has it so bad, but that is just the feelings i get from her. And it annoys me.

I'm not too sure if that made sense or not. Try to make sense of it.. Haha.
But don't get me wrong, this isn't a Bella-bashing session or anything, that is just one of the things that annoys me about Bella.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok... you've read the books and therefore I can accept the fact you find Bella annoying. Some people like a certain type of person and others don't so that's ok...

And as for the self-centred part, Ammy understands you're not trying to bash Bella... the extent to which she goes is simply, "Edward is too good for me." I don't think she thinks she's in the worst situation in the world or anything. Bella is smart enough not to think that... I think she actually finds herself lucky to be spending time with Edward, but she also finds his perfection daunting, which is understandable.

When I read the book, I tried to further understand why Bella might feel so small in front of Edward--why she might think he's too good for her. See, I've never had a situation like this in real life, so I couldn't immediately understand what she was thinking, but as I continued trying to understand why she felt this way, I realised that nobody really CAN understand why she feels this way. Edward is PERFECT (with those slight flaws I mentioned earlier... which actually happen to be good things, haha) and this is basically impossible to find in a human. Bella can't understand why he cares for her so much, just like Edward doesn't think that Bella cares for him as much as he cares for her. She is constantly reminded of her imperfections, and don't you think this is a big hit at her self-esteem?

Think about it... You're always around someone who is better than you in everything. Someone who is just perfect. And in front of them you are constantly showing your imperfections. They don't dislike it--in fact, they still love you for it--but you feel embarrassed.. sort of like "the lesser person." Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I think that in real life, a lot of people go through this, but not to the extent that Bella does. Basically, I understand what she's saying...
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bagellurve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i understand both of your points
and i agree with both actually, lol
i dont like Bella personally
but I understand the hard time she would have around someone like Edward

i just dont like Bella cause it seems like this struggle is ALL she has to her personality
i cant really explain it, but...she is just soo bland
she was bland to me before Edward even stepped in the book
she is just kind of 'meh' about life and it got worse after the reader is introduced to Bella
he is like the richest of chocolate cakes or something equally as delicious
and Bella is kind of like a saltine cracker or a glass of water

maybe thats why she is always so sad in the books
she knows the readers like Edward way better than they like her XD
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

see, we're also forgetting that Edward doesn't REALIZE his perfection and all of the things that he feels he is lacking, he sees in Bella. Her humanity is such a precious thing to all of them, and it becomes painfully obvious to them what they don't have when the watch her.

I do see Bella as a bit bland, but I can't deny that the girl has guts. She's brave, and that's one thing that definitely adds a "cool layer" to her.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think Bella is a bit bland... but I still like her. haha.

You're not going to get confessions out of me as easily as you got that out of me. *shakes fist*

And I understand your point about Edward. Sometimes I want to shake him and tell him he's good enough for Bella... and that she loves him just as much as he loves her. But, of course, I couldn't do that to poor Edward. So I'm going to have to live with him not realising he is everything someone wants... Laughing If you get my gist...

They just have to get to 2nd base. Very Happy
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i love it when you talk dirty.


because i totally agree...
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, I know. Very Happy

Almost missed the second line there...

*sigh* But it MUST happen. And it must happen on top of Edward's piano...
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think i'd have a hottness induced HEART ATTACK



but see now we have to get all technical defining what each "base" is. haha
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bagellurve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think everytime someone has that conversation the answers are ALWAYS different ^o^
its like the ever-changing question, lol
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, damn. I've got home base covered... Emmett and Rosalie have been there a lot of times. Laughing

Edward and Bella ran in slow motion towards first base. We're just waiting for them to progress further...

I don't really think about what the different bases are... try this: just think about Edward wearing... oops, NOTHING... and you'll know why it doesn't matter what base is which.
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AHH EDWARD WEARING NOTHING!!! @.@ I am dead right now. dead. i don't care if he'd eat me because of it, i'd do it anyways. it'd be a good way to die.


so let's not define it then. we each have our own idea, and whatever that idea is, we agree that Edward and Bella need to go there at just a peep above slow-mo.
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bagellurve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as long as i get to race home with Jacob, Bella and Eddie can do whatever they want -^.^-
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh Jacob.

It's weird that I like Bella and Edward together


and yet I don't think she would ever in a million years deserve Jacob.

hottest thing ever...

when he's holding on to her chin, and looking into her eyes, before he answers the phone...

i would have melted into the world's hottest puddle. i wouldn't even melt, i'd evaporate on contact.

*must stop thinking about Jacob's lips*
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmm, i need to read New Moon again
Jacob *warm bubbly feeling*

i am going to imagine that i dreamed of HIM XD XD XD
"God I love werewolves"
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, maybe I should drop Edward a hint that he should speed things up a little. He always does everything fast anyway... *wicked grin*

And Oh my God, Jacob... haha. Make sure you're nowhere near Edward and Bella. Don't want Bella to get distracted by another body... Wink

Edward... boxers or briefs? I need to know so I can visualise him more clearly. Haha. Maybe I don't need to know at all... Visualising can be done in other ways.
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bagellurve
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well...vampires dont need to use the little boys room
he might not even wear underwear @.#
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i vote that Edward does NOT wear underwear, but if he did...he's boxers. God-like men wear boxers.


Bella is not tempted by Jacob's body...part of the reason she doesn't deserve him.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed
where as Ashley and I are going to play a whole baseball game in order to get to his base
if you know what i mean ^.-

but yeah
Ash and I fight over plenty of fictional boyfriends
*points to icons* XD
we = Cool
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we can share Jacob. I'm sure he DEFINITELY has the energy for the both of us.

they are all ours. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its like a community of fictional boyfriend lovers

(no wonder this community is full of girls, lmao XD)
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feellikethenight
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is such a good point. we are all obsessive with the pictures of perfection we make in our heads!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that comes with us reading so many books and having such a good imagination
maybe thats why i dont date
until i find anyone like the hotties on here - then my mind is like "screw that" XD
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL! Love both your avvies. Too funny.

Well, you'd better get to Jacob's base quickly... Ammy has a tendency of hogging hot fictional characters.

And if a guy came on here saying how much he loved Edward, I'd be all: Shocked . "There's no way in hell you can take Edward away from me!" Then I'd declare a fencing match right there and then. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ammy you're too late. I gave you my share of Edward which means your share of Jacob is mine. Meg and I have the corner on the Jacob market. It's why we let you hog Edward.
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, well. Ok then.

Just let me read New Moon. I might become a little more stubborn then. Very Happy haha.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no doubt you will Cool

Jacob = sunshine
Edward = moonlight

its my theory on the issue
and although i like the dark way better
i still just melt every time Bella talks about Jacob
he is sooooo sweet
and i kept New Moon (remember my never wanting to read it due to lack of Edward, lol) JUST because I love him so much
the whole werewolf world is just too awesome
me gusta mucho ^0^
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Ammy
Edward's Secret Lover


Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make my insides squirm (in the good way) when you talk about Jacob.

Almost as much as Edward. I'll bet that when I actually read New Moon it'll be more. In the meantime... tell me whether Jacob is a *sigh* guy or a *drool* guy. If that makes sense.
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Alice
Has Entered a Library


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: Sydney.... *sigh*

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know someone who is like alice in her manyt ways! (except for her gracefullness. but i'd like to see someone try to even half that!!) and she's one of my best friends too. and no it is not someone that any of you know!
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Ammy
Edward's Secret Lover


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that's so great.

*hushed voice* Does her name happen to begin with an "A" and end with a "lice?"

Wink
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bagellurve
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Location: drowning in piles of books! x.x

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacob kinda shifts from *sigh* into *drool*
it nice ^.-
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That tingling feeling again... *sigh*
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Lil
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Location: flying around the globe with Ash...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, Bella can be bland.

Let me just remind you (including the MOD) that this is the Alice and Bella thread.

Take the Jacob and Edward stuff to their thread.
Wait.

Do they even have a thread?

They probably do and i have just totally missed it.
Sigh.





Edward naked? Fuck yeahhh.
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bagellurve
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah sorry Embarassed

Jacob needs his own thread for real @.#
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Ammy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, ok.


It's gonna happen on the piano... I tell you, it's going to happen on Edward's piano. And I'll be sighing happily the entire time.
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feellikethenight
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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Location: travelling the world with Lil

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I just like Alice because even as a human she was completely unique. and everyone thought she was crazy. there are a lot of unexplored and explained dimensions to Alice.

Stephenie says that she is definitely not done telling the stories of these characters, and that hinted to me that she will write about the others...and i reeeeaaaalllly want her to.
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Lil
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmmmm, i want more on Alice and Jasper.

I love both of them. New Moon has a lot to do with Rosalie, doesn't it? Or well at least a bit to do with her. Mostly its just Bella and Jacob, right?
Oh i have no idea.
I will read it eventually.

I love Alice because she is so graceful and always comforting people.
Also, her physical qualities rock. Like her smallness. And spiky hair.
Hehe, not shallow at all.. Embarassed
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